Detailed DZ Suggestions and Breakdown

[Elegy]

Considering the danger zones as their own content (just as RP and Events would be considered a content category), it feels like there has been some neglect to what the zone offers, which can be seen in the recent decline of activity, specifically varied activity in the danger zones.

By design, the danger zone accounts for all different forms of PvP, however as the game has evolved and the players' understanding with it, it feels like there is only one way to play inside these zones effectively, which at the moment is to bring as many numbers as possible (or not go out at all if you don't need to) and camp map swaps (which is by far the most effective strategy for winning fights). Personally I've played Nin for ~8 months actively, and during that time, played all kinds of content in the DZ (Solo hunting buffed/unbuffed, outnumbered fights, village raids, PvE, and missions to name a few).

The problem:

1. Gameplay is frustrating as it rewards clumped high numbers and mapswap camping, leaving other forms of DZ content neglected 
2. Current danger zones have very little incentive (I want to emphasise this, as it is different from the point below and will expand on it later) to go into
3. There is no punishment or sense or urgency to push danger zones (players can effectively wait as long as they like before heading out)

I will expand on each of these points, and offer a glossary of suggestions. Please note, this is not a criticism of dangers zones, it is more of a forum to suggest improvements to bring life to them. Please keep discussions on topic and take an objective viewpoint rather than a personal one so we can get points across 

 

Problem 1: High numbers (Clumped) + Mapswap camping

Part 1: High numbers (Clumped)
High numbers on their own are not an issue, infact they bring a more interesting outlook on the game. The problem is when large numbers are clumped. There are many reasons for this, but the main one is the 60 second death timer. The timer feels way too long considering the DZ maps are so small. A player can run from Dark spiders to South Tigers (a very significant coverage of the whole danger zone) in under 60 seconds.

This becomes even more of a problem while fighting groups as once you are outnumbered, it does not matter how many people you kill as your kills can be revived with relative ease. Focusing medics is a viable strategy, however the punishment for running high medics in groups has no drawback since all groups are encouraged to have as many numbers as possible.

Proposed solution: Reduce respawn timer in Danger zones from 60 seconds to 30 seconds. Safezone timers can stay 60 seconds.

 

Part 2: Mapswap camping
Mapswap camping is by far the most efficient strategy to kill any sized groups. For clarity, mapswap camping is when you are waiting on the edge of a narrow map, ready to unload all your jutsus when the enemy swaps into the map. The reason this works is because the enemy coming in cannot react while they swap in and many jutsus have no AoE limit. 

This inherently is not a problem, as it means with proper flanking, you can also corner the people camping the mapswap, if pushed from the other side, as shown below:

The problem develops when you consider how dangers zones are layed out - there is a presence of corridors. A corridor is a map where once you have passed it, you cannot get back into any map above or below it until you pass it again. These are absolutely terrible for the danger zones and what facilitate mapswap camping as a viable strategy. The diagram below shows how corridors work:

Each square represents a map in the danger zone. The red squares indicate corridors, and as shown, once you are holding one of these corridors, you cannot be flanked, and can effectively mapswap camp indefinitely, which leads to frustration and a stalemate from both sides.

Proposed solution: Remove all corridors from DZ with the introduction of new maps. This would not only allow for outplay opportunity with big factions flanking one another, it would also allow for smaller hunting parties to use creative use of maps to evade opponents and bigger groups. IMO this is the single biggest change DZ's currently NEED. The diagram below shows an example of how new maps can be introduced to remove corridors:

The full list of narrow corridors (these are the ones especially viable to be camped):

Tanzaku Valley
Leaf Tigers
Mini
Bottom CF
Dark bridge
Mist Bears 3
Mist Bears 4
Mist Foxes
Mist Dragonflies
Bears 2
Bandit Caves
Bounty House (mainland)
KB
North Coyotes
South Coyotes
Takumi Tigers
Takumi danger zone
 

Problem 2: Current danger zones have very little incentive to go into

Outside of missions (which become basically irrelevant once a player hits max level), bounty and the pure enjoyment for fighting, there is no incentive for the average player to enter a danger zone. This one I think can be fixed relatively quickly by offering more ryo incentives of going into danger zones without the requirement of players being in there.

Proposed solution 1: @Ichika has already made a great post about this, I will link it here

Proposed solution 2: Introduce a new mob map (suggestion would be the map left of snow wolves, but any new map equidistant from villages can suffice) where a relatively easy mob to kill (compare difficulty to between bears and hosts level). This mob drops an item exclusively used to sell to the shop for ryo (between 20-40 ryo) and commonly drops it (same way as hosts drop DNA). This would encourage players to actively leave the safezones to get consistent ryo rewards, at a higher risk - I use the word consistent because drops like DNA are not consistent, they must be sold to another player to make money.

 

Problem 3: There is no punishment or sense or urgency to push danger zones (players can effectively wait as long as they like before heading out)

There is no urgency at all to push danger zones. Compare this with for example raid points located at GD entrances, there is a sense of urgency where you must push, or lose something as a village. This applies to absolutely nothing inside the DZ (except gaining ground so they are not mapswap camped by another village :rofl:). 

Proposed solution: Honestly, I'm not sure. I would suggest something like raidpoints, but I'd like the community help on this suggestion.

 

Conclusion

The points mentioned above are in order of priority. I want to emphasise that these changes are very important to keep danger zones as enjoyable content. Many players enjoy nin specifically for content in danger zones and it's pretty much a part of every players gameplay. I hope you can give feedback on this forum post objectively and that relevant people like Rory and Erox as well as the other admin team not only see this, but give feedback on their thoughts about this, as well as the rest of the community. 

This post took a lot of effort to create, so please give me the same respect by keeping discussions on topic. 

[Ueda]

Great detailed post. Thank you for taking the time to write it. This gives me a lot of ideas.

[Esty]

You gave the example of B3, but that would gave a lot of advantage to mist if this gets a second entrance, as others would not be able to camp mist but mist would be able to camp foxes, port, and slope. 

[Zabuza Momochi]

I was going to suggest having 2 second protection when you mapswitch however you are maplocked for 3 seconds each time mapswitch.

However I think the idea of instead removing "corridor" maps is much better, would allow any side to simply go around or flank people camping mapswitch  Rory please consider this.

[Raiden Na]

I just want to emphasize how much I enjoy the thought of expansion on these "corridor" maps. Multiple ways around wouldn't completely prevent mapswap camping but it would greatly improve on it which I'm sure in the end would benefit all parties.

Overall I agree it would be nice to see more of a benefit to actually leave your village territory.

This is a wonderful post thank you for taking the time to create it.

[Elevenswords]

1 minute ago, Esty said:

You gave the example of B3, but that would gave a lot of advantage to mist if this gets a second entrance, as others would not be able to camp mist but mist would be able to camp foxes, port, and slope. 

what about cf and mini? i think you missed the point of this post fidel

 

[Elegy]

4 minutes ago, Esty said:

You gave the example of B3, but that would gave a lot of advantage to mist if this gets a second entrance, as others would not be able to camp mist but mist would be able to camp foxes, port, and slope. 

I've listed all corridors that need to be changed in the "full list of corridors section" which includes mist foxes. I purposefully labelled the list as "Narrow corridors" as wide maps like Big desert are not camped effectively.  

[South]

great post plz make this happen. +1

[LionGod]

2 hours ago, Insidious said:

Considering the danger zones as their own content (just as RP and Events would be considered a content category), it feels like there has been some neglect to what the zone offers, which can be seen in the recent decline of activity, specifically varied activity in the danger zones.

By design, the danger zone accounts for all different forms of PvP, however as the game has evolved and the players' understanding with it, it feels like there is only one way to play inside these zones effectively, which at the moment is to bring as many numbers as possible (or not go out at all if you don't need to) and camp map swaps (which is by far the most effective strategy for winning fights). Personally I've played Nin for ~8 months actively, and during that time, played all kinds of content in the DZ (Solo hunting buffed/unbuffed, outnumbered fights, village raids, PvE, and missions to name a few).

The problem:

1. Gameplay is frustrating as it rewards clumped high numbers and mapswap camping, leaving other forms of DZ content neglected 
2. Current danger zones have very little incentive (I want to emphasise this, as it is different from the point above and will expand on it later) to go into
3. There is no punishment or sense or urgency to push danger zones (players can effectively wait as long as they like before heading out)

I will expand on each of these points, and offer a glossary of suggestions. Please note, this is not a criticism of dangers zones, it is more of a forum to suggest improvements to bring life to them. Please keep discussions on topic and take an objective viewpoint rather than a personal one so we can get points across 

 

Problem 1: High numbers (Clumped) + Mapswap camping

Part 1: High numbers (Clumped)
High numbers on their own are not an issue, infact they bring a more interesting outlook on the game. The problem is when large numbers are clumped. There are many reasons for this, but the main one is the 60 second timer. The timer feels way too long considering the DZ maps are so small. A player can run from Dark spiders to South Tigers (a very significant coverage of the whole danger zone) in under 60 seconds.

This becomes even more of a problem while fighting groups as once you are outnumbered, it does not matter how many people you kill as your kills can be revived with relative ease. Focusing medics is a viable strategy, however the punishment for running high medics in groups has no drawback since all groups are encouraged to have as many numbers as possible.

Proposed solution: Reduce respawn timer in Danger zones from 60 seconds to 30 seconds. Safezone timers can stay 60 seconds.

 

Part 2: Mapswap camping
Mapswap camping is by far the most efficient strategy to kill any sized groups. For clarity, mapswap camping is when you are waiting on the edge of a narrow map, ready to unload all your jutsus when the enemy swaps into the map. The reason this works is because the enemy coming in cannot react while they swap in and many jutsus have no AoE limit. 

This inherently is not a problem, as it means with proper flanking, you can also corner the people camping the mapswap, if pushed from the other side, as shown below:

The problem develops when you consider how dangers zones are layed out - there is a presence of corridors. A corridor is a map where once you have passed it, you cannot get back into any map above or below it until you pass it again. These are absolutely terrible for the danger zones and what facilitate mapswap camping as a viable strategy. The diagram below shows how corridors work:

Each square represents a map in the danger zone. The red squares indicate corridors, and as shown, once you are holding one of these corridors, you cannot be flanked, and can effectively mapswap camp indefinitely, which leads to frustration and a stalemate from both sides.

Proposed solution: Remove all corridors from DZ with the introduction of new maps. This would not only allow for outplay opportunity with big factions flanking one another, it would also allow for smaller hunting parties to use creative use of maps to evade opponents and bigger groups. IMO this is the single biggest change DZ's currently NEED. The diagram below shows an example of how new maps can be introduced to remove corridors:

The full list of narrow corridors (these are the ones especially viable to be camped):

Tanzaku Valley
Leaf Tigers
Mini
Dark bridge
Mist Bears 3
Mist Bears 4
Mist Foxes
Mist Dragonflies
Bears 2
Bandit Caves
Bounty House (mainland)
KB
North Coyotes
South Coyotes
Takumi Tigers
Takumi danger zone
 

Problem 2: Current danger zones have very little incentive to go into

Outside of missions (which become basically irrelevant once a player hits max level), bounty and the pure enjoyment for fighting, there is no incentive for the average player to enter a danger zone. This one I think can be fixed relatively quickly by offering more ryo incentives of going into danger zones without the requirement of players being in there.

Proposed solution 1: @Ichika has already made a great post about this, I will link it here

Proposed solution 2: Introduce a new mob map (suggestion would be the map left of snow wolves, but any new map equidistant from villages can suffice) where a relatively easy mob to kill (compare difficulty to between bears and hosts level). This mob drops an item exclusively used to sell to the shop for ryo (between 20-40 ryo) and commonly drops it (same way as hosts drop DNA). This would encourage players to actively leave the safezones to get consistent ryo rewards, at a higher risk - I use the word consistent because drops like DNA are not consistent, they must be sold to another player to make money.

 

Problem 2: There is no punishment or sense or urgency to push danger zones (players can effectively wait as long as they like before heading out)

There is no urgency at all to push danger zones. Compare this with for example raid points located at GD entrances, there is a sense of urgency where you must push, or lose something as a village. This applies to absolutely nothing inside the DZ (except gaining ground so they are not camped by another village :rofl:). 

Proposed solution: Honestly, I'm not sure. I would suggest something like raidpoints, but I'd like the community help on this suggestion.

 

Conclusion

The points mentioned above are in order of priority. I want to emphasise that these changes are very important to keep danger zones as enjoyable content. Many players enjoy nin specifically for content in danger zones and it's pretty much a part of every players gameplay. I hope you can give feedback on this forum post objectively and that relevant people like Rory and Erox as well as the other admin team not only see this, but give feedback on their thoughts about this, as well as the rest of the community. 

This post took a lot of effort to create, so please give me the same respect by keeping discussions on topic. 

I like this idea more power to more maps in the game cuz it could lead to more battle plans and such

[Esty]

Over all I do agree with making second entrances, I have fought map switch camp in the past and I can tell that leaf gets a lot of problems against it. However I don't think that the present reasons of this post is why the DZ are "inactive". In the past mist, sand and leaf were known to use map switch to points that don't come 1/10 near of what we see today, and the DZs were still very active, not to mention  the high number armies. There are other reason from which many think DZ is inactive, although it does have a lot of action from time to time. 

[Elegy]

33 minutes ago, Esty said:

However I don't think that the present reasons of this post is why the DZ are "inactive"

You quote the word "inactive" but that is not what's stated. There's been a decline in activity in danger zones, they are by no means inactive. Previously (by previously I mean around 4+ months ago) 2-3 pages on the bounty book were enough to liven up the DZ with high activity, now 6+ pages and the danger zones are relatively empty. 

Since this is a constructive thread, please share the reasons why you DO think the DZ's are "inactive", I'd be very happy to hear them, and I think it would be valuable discussion for the community 

Furthermore, this isn't some blame game, mapswap camping exists because it is a viable strategy, which although IMO is unethical, works with more efficiency than any other tactic. 

[Furiia]

I like the idea and got 2 things to say:

• 1 With the matchmaking i think there should be a type of reward for everyone and another reason for go DZ IMO, The matchmaking is fine and rewards the good 1 vs 1 players but the top 1 2-3-4 even 5 will more likely be GFS and Tais, and other people as example fire light wont reach alot of points(worst for chakra med,which gives even less reason to go for a mastery that are almost bots), another reason for go into DZ for get more rewards should be good, as getting more kills in the week or something like that (public can decide)
   
• 2 and about fixing the mapswitch camps, (only for leaf) Yamikami made a suggestion that i think its perfect to fix mini camping and the suggestion is this 

For the rest i agree with the post, but, at making these new maps the community should be aware when doing it so these maps are not the same / worse.

[Ainz Ooal Gown]

31 minutes ago, Esty said:

Over all I do agree with making second entrances, I have fought map switch camp in the past and I can tell that leaf gets a lot of problems against it. However I don't think that the present reasons of this post is why the DZ are "inactive". In the past mist, sand and leaf were known to use map switch to points that don't come 1/10 near of what we see today, and the DZs were still very active, not to mention  the high number armies. There are other reason from which many think DZ is inactive, although it does have a lot of action from time to time. 

You dusty don, the post is for everyone and is OBJECTIVE. No one gives 2 shits if all villages camped for 30 years on the fucking mapswitch you idiot. Stop getting so defensive over your precious "last resort" tactic u rat. This proves that if this does get implemented which Rory seems to have put in his mind, your amazing garbage village is gonna be put in the ground. 

[Rumaki]

the master tactician shaking in fear refusing to accept the fact that his methods might soon be impossible to perform and he will be forced to go back to hospital dweller, he must protect them at all costs!

[Imhotep]

Reduced Rev time and added routes around choke points are top tier suggestions.

[Desecration]

Holy, thanks for putting in the time for this post, I especially loved the idea concerning new maps to get rid of 'corridor maps'.

+1 Upvoted

[Esty]

Alright for you ainz, you better read what I said before being a toxic waste LOL 

5 hours ago, Ainz Ooal Gown said:

You dusty don, the post is for everyone and is OBJECTIVE. No one gives 2 shits if all villages camped for 30 years on the fucking mapswitch you idiot. Stop getting so defensive over your precious "last resort" tactic u rat.

Here this is what I stated, 

 

5 hours ago, Esty said:

Over all I do agree with making second entrances, I have fought map switch camp in the past and I can tell that leaf gets a lot of problems against it.

You can argue that basing my point on Leaf is not objective, but I did that to back up why I do support the idea of getting alternative paths, so idk what you are so mad about. 

[Esty]

7 hours ago, Insidious said:

You quote the word "inactive" but that is not what's stated.

I usually see the statement of DZ being death by you and many others, but yes sorry if I made it seem like you were stating that right now. What I meant is inactivity in a way like you just said, since people usually tend to exaggerate about this topic. 

 

7 hours ago, Insidious said:

There's been a decline in activity in danger zones

7 hours ago, Insidious said:

Since this is a constructive thread, please share the reasons why you DO think the DZ's are "inactive", I'd be very happy to hear them, and I think it would be valuable discussion for the community 

In the other hand the reason why I think we are seeing less activity, there can be multiple reasons. Less interest in the game over all, lack of prominent content, Kage leadership, no more village planned events with gm, internal problems in each community making people quit the game for some time and many other reasons that adds up to what we see today. Your example of the bounty pages seems interesting, but by what I have checked I don't really see much difference or in fact I have the feeling is even less. This is something may interest you, we kages have access to how many people are online in the game at every time, I guarantee you that there has been an activity decline over all not only at DZ. 

 

7 hours ago, Insidious said:

Furthermore, this isn't some blame game, mapswap camping exists because it is a viable strategy, which although IMO is unethical, works with more efficiency than any other tactic. 

Totally agree with this, is the same problem as bi warrior. However, I would argue that map camp is not viable at all if what you want is win a fight and get kills since people would not push, it mostly works instead as a defensive strategy to set your enemy away.

Postscript: You may wanna add for alternative entrance at sand and mist too, would make things even better and add a lot of gameplay value to village raids, even more in sand case which has a 5 wide tiles entrance. 

[Esty]

3 minutes ago, Enver said:

Actually crazy how u dont see Leaf advantages just because you are bias.

Let me know which advantages are you talking about I am all ears, the reason why I only mentioned mist and sand is because leaf village already has a second entrance and a open gate. 

[Esty]

5 minutes ago, Enver said:

First reaction to this post is u seeing an adventage for mist.

Yes, it was my bad I thought he was referring only to b3, when he actually meant many other maps through leaf, sand and mist. 

[BlackRain]

7 hours ago, Esty said:

Postscript: You may wanna add for alternative entrance at sand and mist too, would make things even better and add a lot of gameplay value to village raids, even more in sand case which has a 5 wide tiles entrance. 

Make a forum post, it is a fair enough point, however for this thread I purposefully focused on maps specifically in danger zone, hence the title