Vacuums change is a failed experiment

[Ori]

Basically title. The change to vacuums is simply not working.
It literally needs a 2s CC, be it stun or snare, to even have a chance to land. Unless you have 2s CC of your own (and there is only a handful of them as is), or someone else lands a stun for you (which even then is a waste, because you can use 3 other jutsus in the time it takes to cast the vacuums + the selfstun.. its basically just a stun extend), vacuums are, imho, the most useless jutsu one can have.  It is almost impossible to hit 3 bullets on a moving target, unless you are some aimbot. And no one just stands still to get hit by 3 bullets or lets you get in point-blank range. 

To not make it a pointless banter, my suggestions are:
1) Revert vacuums to the state they were before. Instead lock tornados to str Wind and/or make Claw runcast (it is a guaranteed hit with flicker which also cancels casts due to knockback).
2) Make vacuums instacast and drop the stun on the 3rd bullet.
3) Keep vacuums as 1s runcast and remove the selfstun after the 3rd bullet, so at least when you decide to try your luck and hit at least 1 bullet, you don't get punished for it.

Any of these would've been a better fix to Wind, because vacuums aren't what was wrong with it. Claws and nados are. As it is right now, if you are solo Wind or have a 2nd mastery that lacks any 2s CC, there's almost no reason to even learn the jutsu. It's top 3 worst jutsus in the game in its current state. Cheers.

[The Avatar]

Vacuum is useless from the latest nerf. You can't land it unless you're in team fights. somtimes its still bad for teams. 1v1s is way worst , Cheers

[Zabuza Momochi]

In its current state, even with pipe / snares, vacuum is fairly weak considering if you snare someone its always better to use drilling bullets then vacuum.
This means vacuum not only rely's on you snaring your opponent, it also means drilling bullets needs to be on CD for it to be useful.

[Nej]

My personal opinion is that the x3 damage from vacuum sphere being instant was boring gameplay. I remember hitting sphere on wind users and they'd just turn around and do the same shit on me. It turned really boring for me and that's why I stopped playing my wind character before the nerf was even out.

[Ori]

Just now, Nej said:

My personal opinion is that the x3 damage from vacuum sphere being instant was boring gameplay. I remember hitting sphere on wind users and they'd just turn around and do the same shit on me. It turned really boring for me and that's why I stopped playing my wind character before the nerf was even out.

"2) Make vacuums instacast and drop the stun on the 3rd bullet." would still be a better fix to that compared to making the jutsu useless altogether.

[Nej]

3 minutes ago, Ori said:

"2) Make vacuums instacast and drop the stun on the 3rd bullet." would still be a better fix to that compared to making the jutsu useless altogether.

Wind was so powerful, I had a wind pipe level 42 and I would solo kill a lot of level 50s. I don't think this was fix the issue, it will just make wind the strongest elemental mastery again. Wind is still really strong right now if you weren't aware. I would be more down for vacuum to be instant 1s stun and self stun but only hit x1.

[Ori]

5 hours ago, Nej said:

Wind was so powerful, I had a wind pipe level 42 and I would solo kill a lot of level 50s. I don't think this was fix the issue, it will just make wind the strongest elemental mastery again. Wind is still really strong right now if you weren't aware. I would be more down for vacuum to be instant 1s stun and self stun but only hit x1.

Sure, my point is that in its current version, it is not 'fixed'. Wind was OP for different reasons and the fact that a jutsu becoming useless didn't really make wind that much weaker shows just that. Vacuums weren't the issue, they worked the same way for years and it only became considered OP after claw was added. It's like saying fire is OP, because of dragon (which does about the same damage as vacuums minus the stun - issue is that wind has a set up with nados and undodgable flicker claws).
Any change would've been better than runcast vacuums. 

[Anna Primal]

i think vaccum got a bit overnerfed but it still ok 

[Imhotep]

Nerfing Wind Claw would've killed Wind, nerfing Vacuum Spheres balanced it. I don't think there was a better solution without hard-locking Fans and Pipes, which is not going to happen.

The problem is now Vacuum Spheres is out of place among the Wind jutsus, and you have to shoe-horn it in to any rotation. In any situation where you have time to cast Vacuum Spheres, i.e. Off a 2-sec stun like Cutter, you'd much rather just line up triple-bullets for more damage and no self stun. You end up only using it when everything else is on CD in a team-fight and someone just got EP'd, or similar.

But like I said, there was no better solution. Spheres are just going to have to join the list of jutsus that are waiting to be re-worked to fit the current state of the Mastery, alongside Vortex, Feast and the unholy abomination that is Antibodies. In the mean time, Wind is still strong. So I'm sure its at the bottom of the balance changes, that are at the bottom of all the other planned updates.

[defyo5]

Instead of stun i would give knock up for 1 tile for every sphere, because stuning opponent is pretty good thing and shouldn't be a thing for damage focused jutsu.

My suggestion is : 
- Add 5/10 sec more CD for wind claw
- Remove 30/40 base damage from wind claw (bleeding still op)
- Instant cast vacum spheres with knock ups 
- Also add more chakra cost or cooldown for Vacum spheeres, 

 

[SDZ]

I think the thing we have to remember is that each element has its own identity. Wind (by the nature of it's jutsus) is supposed to function like an oppressive 1v1 single target damage mastery as that is where it excels compared to other things like earth (aoe CC) or fire (aoe burst + DoT) or light (CC heavy). 

You want the mastery to have a distinct 'role' or feel to it otherwise we'd all just have different reskins of the same mastery.

[Ori]

On 3/14/2021 at 4:50 PM, SDZ said:

I think the thing we have to remember is that each element has its own identity. Wind (by the nature of it's jutsus) is supposed to function like an oppressive 1v1 single target damage mastery as that is where it excels compared to other things like earth (aoe CC) or fire (aoe burst + DoT) or light (CC heavy). 

You want the mastery to have a distinct 'role' or feel to it otherwise we'd all just have different reskins of the same mastery.

Not sure what is this referring to. Vacuums is what makes wind 'oppressive 1v1 single target mastery' and it is now almost never worth using in 1v1. Even in a long cc, you are probably better off just using other jutsus. Vacuums are basically an extend to stuns in teamfights and wind is imo the worst teamfighting mastery.

On 3/14/2021 at 10:57 AM, Imhotep said:

Nerfing Wind Claw would've killed Wind, nerfing Vacuum Spheres balanced it. I don't think there was a better solution without hard-locking Fans and Pipes, which is not going to happen.

The problem is now Vacuum Spheres is out of place among the Wind jutsus, and you have to shoe-horn it in to any rotation. In any situation where you have time to cast Vacuum Spheres, i.e. Off a 2-sec stun like Cutter, you'd much rather just line up triple-bullets for more damage and no self stun. You end up only using it when everything else is on CD in a team-fight and someone just got EP'd, or similar.

But like I said, there was no better solution. Spheres are just going to have to join the list of jutsus that are waiting to be re-worked to fit the current state of the Mastery, alongside Vortex, Feast and the unholy abomination that is Antibodies. In the mean time, Wind is still strong. So I'm sure its at the bottom of the balance changes, that are at the bottom of all the other planned updates.

Nerfing Claw wouldn't kill Wind. Claw is the reason Wind started being considered OP, if you look it up, there was #Justice4Wind posts and people asking for new jutsu before Claw, and then same people wanted the mastery nerfed. Wind did not need justice, it was already strong. People trying to fix what wasn't broken got the mastery overtuned. That's what made it OP. As I said, the fact that Wind now has one of the top 5 worst jutsus in the game (imo), and is still almost as strong as before that, speaks for itself. Flicker Claw is a guaranteed damage + cancel + DoT. 
Nerfing the most obviously overpowered jutsu which is literally guaranteed and locking Fan to its sub mastery (or changing nados, so they can't be abused by int Wind) was the better and, imo, obvious solution.  Hell, even nerfing the damage it does or removing the stun would've been better than making it runcast. Ruining a jutsu that was not the reason for Wind to be OP did not fix anything, it just ruined a jutsu. 

If someone disagrees, please explain to me, why did nobody call int Wind OP when vacuums worked the same way for YEARS and nerf posts started rolling in after Claw got added (and vacuums got overbuffed, but they were then nerfed to what they were before). People were calling Wind the weakest mastery (which it really wasn't, it just didn't have guaranteed damage) before Claw.. it isn't rocket science to figure out what made it OP.
Flicker nados and Claw are the problem with Wind. 

[Voxa]

U deserve double silver for this post! - NERF CLAW / BRING BACK VACUUM