Another posts about instant cast cancels and crowd control.

[Atrane]

The current game meta is shaped around being able to cancel your opponents casts and certain masteries are unable to compete with this maneuverability that certain masteries offer. I'm going to list each mastery and their amount of these types of jutsus. Everything following is describing jutsu at their MAX LEVEL.

Taijutsu
- Breaking Kick (Instant) (Knock Back)
- Seismic Dash (Targeted) (Instant) (Knock Back)
- Whirlwind Kick (1s runcast) (AoE Knock back)
- Peacock (1st runcast) (AoE Stun)

Gentle Fist
- Mountain Crusher (Instant) (Knock back)
- Palm bottom (Targeted) (Instant) (Stun)
- Revolving Heavens (1s runcast) (AoE Knock back)
- 16 palms (1s runcast) (Stun)

Fan
- Instant knock back on basic attacks, better fans offer triple hit and stun chance as well.
- Tornados (instant cast) (3 tile Stun)
- Wind mask (1s runcast) (AoE Snare/Slow)
- Cyclone (2s runcast) (AoE Snare)
- Slicing wind (1s runcast) (AoE Knock back)

Bubble
- Instant cast trap that snares when stepped on, on a basic attack.
- Great soap bubble (Instant) (AoE Snare)
- Bubble Spray (1s runcast) (Snare)
- Great Bubble Shark (3s runcast) (AoE Snare)

Weapon Master
- Shadow Shuriken (Instant) (Silence) (Intellect req)
- Bear trap (2s runcast) (intellect req)
- Risky Blade Dance (1s runcast) (No actual crowd control, but cancels enemy casts when it lands) (Strength req)
- Potentially can use swords with chance to knock back on their basic. (Str req)
- Dance of the Crescent Moon (2s runcast) (Stun) (Str req)
- Crescent Moon Beheading (2s slow runcast) (Knock back) (Str req)

Medic
- Poison Scalpel (Instant) (Stun) (4 second cooldown)
- Poison Senbon (1s runcast) (Stun)

Wind
- Wind Claw (Instant) (Knock back)
- Drilling Air Bullet (1s runcast) (Knock back)
- Vacuum Sphere (1s runcast) (Stun)

Water
- Water Slash (Instant) (Knock back)
- Colliding wave (1s runcast) (Knock back)
- Water prison (1s standcast) (Snare)

Earth
- Great Earth Prison (2s standcast) (AoE Snare)
- Earth Split (1s runcast) (Stun)
- Mud River (1s runcast) (Knock back and Slow)

Lightning
- Lightning Spear (1s runcast) (AoE Stun)
- Lightning Cutter (2s slow runcast) (Stun)
- Lightning Pillars (2s standcast) (AoE Stun)
- Lightning Current (1s runcast) (AoE Stun)

Fire
- Combusting Vortex (1s runcast) (Stun)
- Big Flame bullet (1s runcast) (Stun)



Fire is vastly outmatched in terms of CC compared to every single other mastery. They have the worst options for cancelling their opponents.

Fire, Lightning, and Earth lack the ability to instantly cancel their opponents but Lightning and Earth make up for it with their great team fighting capability.

This makes fire the SOLE mastery with very little and very awkward to use crowd control. I think in order for fire to catch up to the rest of the meta, either Big flame bullet or Combusting vortex should become instant cast once again. This provides fire users with the opportunity to counter their opponents in a way that every single other mastery can do much easier. Please consider some type of change regarding this @Ueda



 

 

[Ori]

Now that I actually read it, I don't really think fire needs a buff, it's a pretty good mastery overall. Imo, it just needs the hitbox on big bullet and vortex fixed. The animations are bigger than the actual hitbox.
Also vortex shouldn't selfstun the user for longer than it stuns the opponent on hit, it makes no sense.

[Anna Primal]

14 minutes ago, Atrane said:

The current game meta is shaped around being able to cancel your opponents casts and certain masteries are unable to compete with this maneuverability that certain masteries offer. I'm going to list each mastery and their amount of these types of jutsus. Everyone following is describing jutsu at their MAX LEVEL.

Taijutsu
- Breaking Kick (Instant) (Knock Back)
- Seismic Dash (Targeted) (Instant)
- Whirlwind Kick (1s runcast) (AoE Knock back)
- Peacock (1st runcast) (AoE Stun)

Gentle Fist
- Mountain Crusher (Instant) (Knock back)
- Palm bottom (Targeted) (Instant) (Stun)
- Revolving Heavens (1s runcast) (AoE Knock back)
- 16 palms (1s runcast) (Stun)

Fan
- Instant knock back on basic attacks, better fans offer triple hit and stun chance as well.
- Tornados (instant cast) (3 tile Stun)
- Wind mask (1s runcast) (AoE Snare/Slow)
- Cyclone (2s runcast) (AoE Snare)

Bubble
- Instant cast trap that snares when stepped on, on a basic attack.
- Great soap bubble (Instant) (AoE Snare)
- Bubble Spray (1s runcast) (Snare)
- Great Bubble Shark (3s runcast) (AoE Snare)

Weapon Master
- Shadow Shuriken (Instant) (Silence) (Intellect req)
- Bear trap (2s runcast) (intellect req)
- Risky Blade Dance (1s runcast) (No actual crowd control, but cancels enemy casts when it lands) (Strength req)
- Potentially can use swords with chance to knock back on their basic. (Str req)
- Dance of the Crescent Moon (2s runcast) (Stun) (Str req)
- Crescent Moon Beheading (2s slow runcast) (Knock back) (Str req)

Medic
- Poison Scalpel (Instant) (Stun) (4 second cooldown)
- Poison Senbon (1s runcast) (Stun)

Wind
- Wind Claw (Instant) (Knock back)
- Drilling Air Bullet (1s runcast) (Knock back)
- Vacuum Sphere (1s runcast) (Stun)

Water
- Water Slash (Instant) (Knock back)
- Colliding wave (1s runcast) (Knock back)
- Water prison (1s standcast) (Snare)

Earth
- Great Earth Prison (2s standcast) (AoE Snare)
- Earth Split (1s runcast) (Stun)
- Mud River (1s runcast) (Knock back and Slow)

Lightning
- Lightning Spear (1s runcast) (AoE Stun)
- Lightning Cutter (2s slow runcast) (Stun)
- Lightning Pillars (2s standcast) (AoE Stun)
- Lightning Current (1s runcast) (AoE Stun)

Fire
- Combusting Vortex (1s runcast) (Stun)
- Big Flame bullet (1s runcast) (Stun)



Fire is vastly outmatched in terms off CC compared to every single other mastery. They have the worst options for cancelling their opponents.

Fire, Lightning, and Earth lack the ability to instantly cancel their opponents but Lightning and Earth make up for it with their great team fighting capability.

This makes fire the SOLE mastery with very little and very awkward to use crowd control. I think in order for fire to catch up to the rest of the meta, either Big flame bullet or Combusting vortex should become instant cast once again. This provides fire users with the opportunity to counter their opponents in a way that every single other mastery can do much easier. Please consider some type of change regarding this @Ueda



 

 

agreed that earth/light and fire are in  need of polish they might be good in group fight but not in 1vs1 so much 

[Sin]

Ahem, I will be speaking for the fire users, BUFF FIRE! 

[Fire]

I agree that it does need a buff. For the players saying "it has damage!" The scaling on fire is not THAT much better than every other mastery so that argument isn't too great. Fire is underwhelming compared to every other mastery at the moment. Making flame bullet instant cast would definitely make the mastery less inferior to all others currently. I don't think making vortex would even fix this issue since there is also 30 second cool down and it also self stuns the user longer than it stuns the enemy so they would just be punished afterwards. Lastly anyone that thinks fire isn't inferior, compare every Fire combination with each mastery, Fire is always the weakest of it's counterparts. Ex: Earth Water > Earth Fire, Light WM > Fire WM, Water Med > Fire Med etc...

[Balcoin]

[Ori]

9 hours ago, Fire said:

I agree that it does need a buff. For the players saying "it has damage!" The scaling on fire is not THAT much better than every other mastery so that argument isn't too great. Fire is underwhelming compared to every other mastery at the moment. Making flame bullet instant cast would definitely make the mastery less inferior to all others currently. I don't think making vortex would even fix this issue since there is also 30 second cool down and it also self stuns the user longer than it stuns the enemy so they would just be punished afterwards. Lastly anyone that thinks fire isn't inferior, compare every Fire combination with each mastery, Fire is always the weakest of it's counterparts. Ex: Earth Water > Earth Fire, Light WM > Fire WM, Water Med > Fire Med etc...

No. Why would an AoE stun be instacast lol. 

[Ueda]

Good discussion.
Lots to think about. Thanks for the meta analysis.

EDIT: It's a breath of fresh air to see people analyzing the meta in different angles. From the specific angle of instant cast, cast cancels for example.

[SDZ]

QUOTING my post from the wind thread: 

I think the thing we have to remember is that each element has its own identity. Wind (by the nature of it's jutsus) is supposed to function like an oppressive 1v1 single target damage mastery as that is where it excels compared to other things like earth (aoe CC) or fire (aoe burst + DoT) or light (CC heavy). 

You want the mastery to have a distinct 'role' or feel to it otherwise we'd all just have different reskins of the same mastery. 

IMO the big wrench in the works is when you ADD a weapon to masteries to allow them to round off their weaknesses. For example a pipe to wind which means that landing skills that are supposed to be skillshots suddenly become target practise on a snared enemy for 2s. 

[Fire]

6 hours ago, Mugen said:

I disagree.

What scaling are we talking about? It has extremely high base damages + burn damage. There is no argument about it having the strongest burst out of all other elements.

Not only it's the strongest, but it is also mostly 3 tiles or aoe.

I'd like to hear the criteria of your comparisons. Are we talking only about 1v1 or groups as well? Because everybody knows that fire excels in group fights more than other elements with exception of earth.

Nobody is going to agree with you that these are weakest combinations in groups or 1v1:

Fire/Earth

Fire/Water

Fire/INT WM

Fire/Med

Fire/Tai

While there are some that are clearly close to or at the bottom

Fire/Light

Fire/Wind

Fire/STR WM

They are the weakest out of their counterparts in 1v1. (Ex: Earth + Anything is stronger than Earth + Fire in 1v1). As far as groups go, you're right they have potential to be very strong. Such as Fire/WM INT and Fire/Earth. However it still would be nice for Fire to get one good interrupt. Especially considering that CC is what leads up to you being able to deal heavy damage in the first place. Making everything a cast/self stun to punish the user only to do damage that will retaliated in both groups and 1v1 isn't sufficient imo.

 

12 hours ago, Ori said:

No. Why would an AoE stun be instacast lol. 

Because it's a small hit box that charge casts and self stuns the user on a mastery with 0 good interrupts and a kit that does not have any CC. Let's face it big flame bullet and vortex are almost completely useless. That includes group fights as well.

[Ori]

10 minutes ago, Fire said:

Because it's a small hit box that charge casts and self stuns the user on a mastery with 0 good interrupts and a kit that does not have any CC. Let's face it big flame bullet and vortex are almost completely useless. That includes group fights as well.

I disagree. A good bullet can win a teamfight. Vortex cancels 2s casts with ease and you can extend stuns on already stunned targets. Fire doesn't need a realiable stun, because the jutsus aren't really that hard to hit, being fast and AoE. It also has the highest base damage in the game, and after vacuums being nerfed, the highest dmg on an instacast jutsu which can pontentially hit more than twice. 
Fire just needs the hitboxes fixed, rest is okay. Why fix something that isn't broken? 

[Atrane]

One possible change i'd like to propose is changing Vortex into an instant cast silence.

Overall stuns are much stronger than silences due to how much they restrict their opponent, this isn't something fire needs due to the amount of damage the mastery provides. Making Vortex into an instant cast silence could also differentiate this jutsu from just being "Worse lightning current."

[Hageshi]

I have never played fire seriously, but I see how it doesn't live up to any other mastery on it's own. Fire's only pluses are the burst damage which can be combined with other masteries. I vouch for this post 

[ForestEdge]

U want the highest damaging mastery in the game also get ez to land CC ?

 

[Anna Primal]

2 hours ago, ForestEdge said:

U want the highest damaging mastery in the game also get ez to land CC ?

 

but wind has the highest damage   per jutsu at least 

[Fire]

On 3/14/2021 at 12:13 PM, Mugen said:

I disagree.

Fire excels more than for example lightning when combined with another element. Ex. Fire/Water > Light/Water / Fire/Earth > Light>Earth / Fire/Tai > Light/ Tai.

Fire Water in itself is one of the most balanced (In a good way, it's a strong combination) elemental combinations.

Fire Earth excels in teamfights more than anything.

Making fire stronger than it already is would cross the line, and overtune combinations that are already extremely good. The only change you could ask for is for Vortex, really.

I agree that Fire/Water is probably one of the most balanced out of Fire's elemental counterparts but everything else is very debatable. Fire/Tai isn't exactly stronger than Light/Tai. That's very debatable.

Tai light has homings, and stuns paired with the ability to interrupt everything from their Taijutsu half. Yes with Fire/Tai you can get off some damage with a knock back into phoenix/dragon but this also leaves you vulnerable where as though a tai light has better tools to set up combo's in its kit without being punished.

"Fire/Water > Light/Water" is also very debatable. It depends on the match up. Fire/Water has no good combo starter aside from water prison. Other than that the Fire/Water mastery depends on aim for the most part. Light/Water how ever has multiple combo starters with Spear/Chidori/WP and even has a better interrupt like lightning current which is far better than vortex and less punishable than big flame bullet. I personally think Light/Water is better and easier to use. However that is just an opinion ofcourse, it's very debatable.

"Fire/Earth > Light/Earth" in groups I would give fire/earth the edge, but in 1v1? no. Honestly you can save Earth wall to block phoenix if you feel like you may get hit (or flat out dodge it, it's not hard to). Dragon is a good burst damage jutsu but it's easily punishable. Which is fair, high risk high reward however the opposing mastery can easily punish this. Light/Earth also like the former mastery combo has a far better combo starter and much more options. You also have the earth homing which is only 14 second cool down and continuously poke them.

 

15 hours ago, ForestEdge said:

U want the highest damaging mastery in the game also get ez to land CC ?

 

This despite what people think is not 100% a fact. It does have very good burst damage jutsu's but it isn't the highest. INT Wind has better base damage for a lot of it's jutsu. There's also jutsu like explosive kunai that hit twice while also applying burn. Poison jutsu's also tick longer than burn while also doing more damage with only slightly less base damage which will usually amount in more damage over time than fire would.

[Lumy]

Fire excels in AoE damage which makes them good for grinding and group fights. Its 1v1 aspect needs 0 buffs. It’s not designed for it

[Imhotep]

It's pretty clear that the masteries are meant to serve specific roles. The fact that certain masteries lose 1v1's is by design; they make up for it in other ways. Looking at the game's design philosophy, the purpose is to re-enforce the idea that choice matters. So when we talk about balance in Nin, as much as we want to talk about 1v1's, we really have to ask whether there was a meaningful choice to be made. Anything that's blatantly better across the board is not a choice as far as players are concerned. I agree that access to instant CC is one of those things.

Tai users arguably sacrifice most of their team-fight usefulness to dominate 1v1's with instant CC and interrupts. The same is not true for 20 Str Fan or Pipe users, nor the new triple-stun Fans. It's also not true for Medics, which combo well with any mastery with little-to-no investment purely because of P Scalpel. The answer isn't to remove all instant CC, or homogenize the Masteries by giving it to everyone. Instead we should be more cautious about doling out access to the mechanic. 

Interrupts are part of what helps to set the hectic pace of combat in Nin. Without it, especially in this Tank Meta, it would slow down to a crawl of exchanging 1-2 cast-times. Interrupts serve a purpose without being overpowering by setting up unavoidable combos. Silences and soft CC are the way forward. 20 Str Fans should interrupt, but not knock-back, higher Str fans can do a more powerful knock-back instead of stun. 20 Str Pipes should slow instead of snare, higher strength pipes can do what they do now. P Scalpel can silence and poison, which together is more than enough utility.

The specifics are less relevant, but the point is no one should have access to such strong mechanics with no real trade-off.