Eliminate Map-switch Gameplay

[Black Rain]

This has been troubling me since I started playing this game. I think the mechanic of mapswap is too strong and efficient that it leads to being the most relied on tactic for pretty much any group larger than 4 people. This causes a huge stalemate between groups and due to the amount of corridors (choke points in the DZ which block entry to other maps, e.g. KB is a corridor to sand. You cannot leave sand without going through that map) in the DZ. 

The problem: Currently the best viable tactic for large fights is to camp a mapswap

Reasons why:

• DZ has too many corridors: access to different parts of the map can be completely blocked off by camping one single map. There is no other way enemies could come from, leaving them nowhere to go.
• Loading times: Even with a great pc and good ping, the loading times for mapswap is enough to lose majority of your hp and get CC locked
• Crashing on map swap: Worthy of mention. After testing, if you are partied up with players, your likelyhood of crashing (especially onto populated maps) is significant, putting you at an instant GG
• Instant vulnerability on swap: AOE jutsus are WAY too effective and efficient on mapswaps

Examples:

• 90% of fights in DZ between large village/rogue groups

[Ainz Ooal Gown]

That video brings me sadness and sorrow because those leafies now have the deluded thought that they are good at the game :pensive:

[Black Rain]

Now the problem with this is I don't think I can offer a viable solution. I can think of some things that would help IMO, and I'll list them in order of most viable to least viable.

Possible solutions (Most viable listed first)

• Remove all corridors from DZ maps: Just add more maps that allow multiple routes into different locations of the general map. This would mean camping one side (unless your scouts have done a really good job) will not be viable as you could always be jumped.
• Remove free map swap + Add invulnerability: I know there were invulnerability frames when you swapped before and this change was reverted (or so I was told). My suggestion is you get 5 seconds of invulnerability once you get into the map, but you cannot cast jutsu. (I don't like this solution, it feels really botched and unfluid, but I can think of nothing else apart from the point mentioned above). 

Let me know what you guys think.

[Kyreno]

I agree that it must be changed but as rory bas said dont just complain about a problem but suggest ways to solve it as well and neither of the suggestions you have made are useful.

1st more ways are planned to be added later in the game sand will be connected to tanz

2nd that would make scouting 100% risk free and ruin the fun

[Atrane]

I agree. This is not an easy problem to solve in a game like this, I think the best option is expanding the game world by quite a bit. For most places, there is only 1 way in, and 1 way out. The layout of the game world is full of dead ends which leads to the situations you see in that video being the result of most large fights.

It's very easy for a group of ninjas to lock down something like Dark Bridge or K Bridge, while also being extremely difficult to remove them from that camp. Creating more paths in and out of places diminishes the value of holding spots like this, and encourages movement within the game world to flank or get around enemies.
 

2 minutes ago, Kyreno said:

I agree that it must be changed but as rory bas said dont just complain about a problem but suggest ways to solve it as well and neither of the suggestions you have made are useful.

1st more ways are planned to be added later in the game sand will be connected to tanz

2nd that would make scouting 100% risk free and ruin the fun

I agree with the point that scouting would be way too risk free with the 2nd point. Your response to the first point has been said for years now, it's important for the issues to be brought up again and again so that they can actually be fixed one day. Rather than delaying and delaying year after year by saying "don't worry it's planned for the future."

We are in the future now.

[Black Rain]

1 minute ago, Kyreno said:

I agree that it must be changed but as rory bas said dont just complain about a problem but suggest ways to solve it as well and neither of the suggestions you have made are useful.

1st more ways are planned to be added later in the game sand will be connected to tanz

2nd that would make scouting 100% risk free and ruin the fun

I literally made 2 suggestions... 

Anyway to seriously reply to your post, I'm going to emphasise the words Ninja game.

Nowhere in the word ninja (even armies of ninjas) do you have a large visible group gathered at a single point for a fight (do not send me links to the madara fight). Ninjas are meant to be stealthy. If you have a scout who runs into a large map, it would force the players to play further back, hidden or allow enemies to come into the map. 

I never said these were perfect solutions, but thanks for your reply I guess

[Anna Primal]

1 hour ago, Ainz Ooal Gown said:

That video brings me sadness and sorrow because those leafies now have the deluded thought that they are good at the game :pensive:

this might be a rare case we agree

[Ainz Ooal Gown]

1 minute ago, ana primal said:

this might be a rare case we agree

sand does it worse lmfao, u guys stood in cf for 1 hour today and didnt push yikes

[Anna Primal]

1 hour ago, Black Rain said:

Now the problem with this is I don't think I can offer a viable solution. I can think of some things that would help IMO, and I'll list them in order of most viable to least viable.

Possible solutions (Most viable listed first)

• Remove all corridors from DZ maps: Just add more maps that allow multiple routes into different locations of the general map. This would mean camping one side (unless your scouts have done a really good job) will not be viable as you could always be jumped.
• Remove free map swap + Add invulnerability: I know there were invulnerability frames when you swapped before and this change was reverted (or so I was told). My suggestion is you get 5 seconds of invulnerability once you get into the map, but you cannot cast jutsu. (I don't like this solution, it feels really botched and unfluid, but I can think of nothing else apart from the point mentioned above). 

Let me know what you guys think.

i fully agree even if new client comes it would be hard to do mapswitch but still possible this would make it easier

[Anna Primal]

1 minute ago, Ainz Ooal Gown said:

sand does it worse lmfao, u guys stood in cf for 1 hour today and didnt push yikes

we had 10 ppl they where 25  we only camped to proof we can do it too no other reason  and to prove leaf is to pussy to come with double the numbers.

[Dona]

We have a few seconds of immunity when we map switch. The problem is that the time it takes for the map to load is too long and most of the time the immunity is already over when you see your char.

One of the suggestion to make people not fear to switch map (and to discourage people from trapping the entrances of maps) would be to have a higher seconds of immunity and a higher timer before being able to switch map again.

Obviously the timer to switch map must be higher than the seconds of immunity to make the people camping being able to map lock the scouts.

One of the only problem I see with this idea is that scouting will be wayy easier.

[Darth Vader]

5 hours ago, Black Rain said:

Now the problem with this is I don't think I can offer a viable solution. I can think of some things that would help IMO, and I'll list them in order of most viable to least viable.

Possible solutions (Most viable listed first)

• Remove all corridors from DZ maps: Just add more maps that allow multiple routes into different locations of the general map. This would mean camping one side (unless your scouts have done a really good job) will not be viable as you could always be jumped.
• Remove free map swap + Add invulnerability: I know there were invulnerability frames when you swapped before and this change was reverted (or so I was told). My suggestion is you get 5 seconds of invulnerability once you get into the map, but you cannot cast jutsu. (I don't like this solution, it feels really botched and unfluid, but I can think of nothing else apart from the point mentioned above). 

Let me know what you guys think.

I think the first solution is best. New maps, more mobs. Mobs on every map that include drops. The problem with the second solution is that no matter how much you increase the interval of time for invulnerability; a new problem will arise due to the fact most people who play this game myself included have low end PCs and for most it is not as simple as "Getting a better PC". Increase it too much and you'd be on the next map by then. Increase it too little and the solution remains a problem.  I heard in the new client, map swap is removed as a whole. I wonder how that would effect loading time? 

Everyone in Sand Discord at the time knew we were going to lose that fight because we know how hardcore mapswitching is; so yeah we just charged ahead and let Leaf have their win so they'd leave us alone. You can't leave a Sand Map without seeing a Leaf within an hour.  

Overall? Most viable is the top one. 

[Deviax]

Like other people said here, once the world map will grow, this issue will be resolved as you can move around the chokepoint through other routes.

also, it could be interesting if there were some underground/caves with higher difficulty which were connected as a alternate way to move around, for example if snakes mansion would connect to hosts cave which can connect to sand scarabs cave. (can also connect to mist ants cave through long run\boat as a second way to get to mist without bein ambushed on mist port) can put high lvl mobs on those connecting caves so it will have higher risk.

 

beside that, it could be interesting if advances masteries will offer utilty jutsus that could help with that issue for example:

advanced earth: 

Tunnelling Technique: create a tunnel in the ground across maps or different points in the map that other people can use as well.

Tsuchi Gunjikoudou no Jutsu \ Subterranean Voyage: go inside the ground and move around for a few seconds, cannot be damaged while in this mode

advanced water:

Mizutamari no Jutsu: transform into a puddle of water for spying\hiding\ambush

Dust\Exposion:

fly around for a few seconds above everyone undetected\cannot be damaged.

[Darth Vader]

14 minutes ago, Deviax said:

 

Tunnelling Technique: create a tunnel in the ground across maps or different points in the map that other people can use as well.

 

Literally just make this a basic technique.

[SDZ]

Completely agree that this is a huge problem that if solved would drastically improve gameplay. 
Whilst many have suggested more maps, let’s be realistic here because I’m sure Rory already has his hands full with other updates and real life - there is a ton of work required to implement even just one map and you guys are asking for many. 
 

I believe a more feasible short term bandaid fix just to get rid of this gameplay would be something along the lines of what @Dona suggested; more invuln but lock on map.

My suggestion would be:

- 5-7 seconds of invulnerability on map swap

- 10-15 seconds of map lock once you enter a map (automatic, regardless of combat)

This may have some consequences on small groups but I do believe this would be a good temporary fix to prevent the gameplay we see in that video. 

[Hageshi]

I like both sollutions, I really want to see more flanking and actual strategies which will prove who is a better leader. Videos like this and even back in the day with Taka against sand on CE are just sad. 
All we have to do is pray for 2021 to keep up the updates and the new client to bless us.

[Nagumo]

No map switch was something to be considered with the new client, the reason we have map switching is because of how NPCs mechanics work on nin rory said.. That being said i hope the game becomes one big map at some points with multiple ways too enter villages and what not, tired of seeing the same maps for years. 

[Black Rain]

5 hours ago, Deviax said:

also, it could be interesting if there were some underground/caves with higher difficulty which were connected as a alternate way to move around, for example if snakes mansion would connect to hosts cave which can connect to sand scarabs cave. (can also connect to mist ants cave through long run\boat as a second way to get to mist without bein ambushed on mist port) can put high lvl mobs on those connecting caves so it will have higher risk

I really REALLY like this idea !!

[Sanshouo]

I agree that mapswitch mechanic is the biggest problem of this game right now and it discourages a lot of people from playing. It makes big scale fights almost impossible and is bringing the game to a point where you have to camp a map for 1 hour or even more doing nothing. Or you can push and be merked before you can see what even killed you.

 

Imo there is only 1 way to solve this quickly.

Add invulnerability buff for 2 seconds for a character that enters the map (during this buff given character can't cast any jutsus). It would be similar to a buff that you have after being reved. Imo 2-3 seconds is enough to see the map and make a move in some direction to avoid being spammed with jutsus by 20 people.

5 seconds, like someone proposed above, would be too long and it would make even solo hunting a lot harder (everyone could basically go through half of the map being untouchable).

I think it's not that complicated to introduce to a game and should be done asap.

 

Also, I don't know how much work it would need but widening the zone of each locations where you can enter could also help.

 

Other way that could remove the problem is adding more alternate routes between villages (so more locations could have more than 2 exits) but I understand that it would take a lot of time.

[Black Rain]

3 minutes ago, Sanshouo said:

Add invulnerability buff for 2 seconds for a character that enters the map

I think this is more reasonable than my 5 seconds suggestion, people with low end PC's would suffer, but as mentioned before it would be a band-aid fix until more maps are introduced.

It should also include a timer where you cannot leave the same map though, otherwise mapswap can be abused

[SDZ]

The reason I suggest 5 seconds is because we already have a small invulnerability frame upon map switch. The problem is it is just not long enough so that has to be tweaked to find the sweet spot.